Dense Image Space

What are some of your ideas for subjects for DIS?

 

 

eyeball

    Being interested in vision on many levels, I would really like to do a good quality eyeball on a 1-D horizontal grid (perhaps 3-5 rows in 2-D), over about 60-90 degrees, about up to the eyebrow. Technically difficult mainly for involuntary eye movement reasons, but also due to lighting and macro wirh a reflective surface. It would be a real attention grabber, particularly in stereo. Maybe start with an animal corpse ;-)

dead bugs; arachnids

You know what I wana image using this thing. Don't even have to tell you. Eyeballs gonna be way hard But I agree, very very interesting -so many technical issues: subject movement (blur; displacement); lighting (ok try not to move while I have 15Lbs of gear inches away from eye when I set off the flash, ok?); specular highlights. Just static macro images of irises are amazing looking at all the colors and structure. Corpse eyeball? ewe. But a corpse like squirrel jerky would be fascinating

So my vote, not that it was asked for, but would be for dead small creatures; interesting surfaces (heavy rust; decay; paint flakes etc.); generally inert stuff.

on a side note i remember you mentioning doing multiple exposures on water movement I stumbled across this and was struck at how it kind of represented the 'average' space of occupancy in a somewhat similar way to how a (chaotic) attractor of a dynamic system in phase space is restricted, but never follows the same path through that space. Not sure where I'm going with this just another grain of sand on the pile.

squirrels and water

    A good looking corpse eye would not be so gruesome. I was thinking of a largish intact animal, where you might not be able to tell it was dead. The squirrel jerky is dead, no question. I've got some squirrel jerkey on hand. A good disection (frog, pig) would be good, a kind of virtual tour of innards. Good fur/feathers is nice in stereo, great optical properties.

    The rock with 10s exposure of water is a common technique. Every time I see one, I want to make a "power of 10" video -- 1/1000 to 100 second exposures with different lightings/flash to roughly match background illumination. Many at each exposure to show variance differences, sort of a calming of the waters from short to long exposures (time scales).

array of insect wings

Large dragonfly, down to thrips. I love how the thin film of wings gives slight color to wings, and the fine detail of hairs, leading edge combs, and the 3-D corrugations. Very wide field (100mm), very shallow depth(1mm). Do each one individually, but "collect" them in a large array.

DIS and that

Just curious as to what you see as the next two or three steps in the DIS project are. I'm really eager to see any kind of example of this -do you think you will have to write a large portion of the core DIS software for a demo image or is there a way to do some moc-ups or examples using matlab or some photoshop layering stuff?

I think the wings would be fantastic, but I'm just wondering if subjects with a little more structure or surface contour might test/ demonstrate DIS more effectively. But then again I've really only seen drosophila wings close up (i was screening mutants for whether they had 2 or 3 hairs on a part of their body -that experience weened me from any interest in fruit fly genetics) and my recollection was they were remarkable smooth at the macro level (stereo microscope) but there were definitely little hairs an intricacies that would be fun to explore -and when you say array i think you mean take a dragonfly, beetle, wasp etc and images them all together. Just got a little portable photomicroscopy set up on ebay we'll see how that works with the xt. this this and that

DIS steps

    I'll be able to mock up some image arrays using Space, with manual selection of which image is "on top". Started to do this with the "Lichen on Laxton" photos, because I realized I could, but then realized it would be much better to do it again, 2d array, with a more informative subject, wider field of view. I need a linear stage for camera movement to do it right, but even just dead reckoning will be good enough for demo purposes.

    The main hang-up with a Space demo is the panning code. I want to do this right. Might not be too long before I get something that kind of works. But can use the existing "windowing" functionality to sort of see what it will be like if panning was available. The other hang-up is personal -- I'm trying my darndest to get 32-bit grayscale right, and it prays on my mind.

    Drosophila wings are about as boring as they get. I'm amazed by the 3D structure in many other wings. Most beetle front wings are jointed and cleverly folded, for example.

     I have a microscope you're welcome to borrow. The one you got will likely work just as well at the 60x magnification, but it might be easier borrowing mine for a few reasons -- it's got a standard heavy base/stalk and course/fine focus that will support the camera without a lot of hassle, an x-y stage, and condenser back lighting.

32 bit grayscale

What is the practical use or reason why you want such huge monochromatic dynamic range?  youre headed to 96bit rgb files.  on a side note, apparently the current version of the 64bit MS server operating system can address 1tb of ram.  Would that tide you over for a little while?

32 bit

    No, it has to do with compatibility with other programs that use real (32 bit) values, for things like statistical maps and fourier components where you might need precision. Certainly not for any display quality issues.

    Yes, 64-bit operating systems will allow native 64-bit addressing of TB of memory. That's a nice number. As memory gets cheap, the possibilities for random image access open up a whole new world. Sometime I'm going to need to port Spsce to 64-bit.

shoes; attire

I think articles of personal wear such as (well worn) shoes would be fascinating as DIS subjects. Or gloves -they tend to tell a story in their creases and gunk. Mark, I think 3D macroscopic analysis of one of your shoes would actually be quite interesting. (like that pair on your back porch)

old shoes

    Yes, I was serious about photographing shoes and such. Your interest in everyday detrius has a huge cross section with an interest of mine in the stories that objects tell. I'm a packrat for bits of wood/screws/odd materials/musty shoes mostly because I know something of their history, and I enjoy reusing them in new projects.

    I was just thinking about this with respect to one of your photos of paralel bike tire tracks through concrete patches on a sidewalk. Reminded me of the stories paleontologists tell about dinasaur/marine invertebrate tracks -- inferences about the life history of extinct animals and what the preservation conditions must have been.

implicit imagery

Something I think would be fun to do as a little side project is just to think about and/or find objects that have the most amount of condensed implicit information content possible (information that is generic and accessable to a wide audience not so much personal understanding of the object).  This is a classic photography technique/skill, but it would be fun to really push it or tell a whole storing using just that kind of hyper-condensed image abstraction with a series of photos.  (started a book under 'visualization')

whole story imagery

    I know this is why garbage piles are on your list. Hard to do, not to slip into the realm of abstract art, as so much of the viewers experience comes into the context of how the image is interpreted. If it is hyper-condensed as you suggest (every element fits into the story, such that there is no other interpretation) then it becomes fabulously hard to decode the image(s), like a puzzle. A worthy goal, but I'm afraid I'm not great at it. I tend to say just two things with a photo, the explicit subject and some implicit context around the subject. Book spines, a person's actual used bookshelf that reflects some of their interests. 

tools; doorknobs

Making it overly-complex (ahem) complicated would not be very valuable. I'm thinking absolutely keep it a simple a possible. Its why I like flaking paint, trash, etc. Anything that has a record of some kind of human contact would be of interest. Old tools. I've taken some macro shots (pre digital) of this crappy old door lock/knob in my san francisco apartment and there is a lot there -hand scum, key scratches, abraded wood...Ya it WOULD be abstract art. But that's a good point. Where to draw that line, because I hope certain component enzymind will be to question where those lines a drawn.

gantry translator

this thing or an equivalent type of setup might be useful for DIS or just doing high pricision macro surveys.  wouldprobably be realtively easy to build just wouldn't have the acuracy or precsion -probably could get close using some threaded rod for a screw drive or some nice ebay micrometer stage, now that would be acurate and precise for macro/micro work. 

or maybe something like this for bigger specimins/outdoor

3/4 axis stages

     Hey, this thing would be handy for macro DIS if it could handle about a 500g camera without too much backlash/shake. The controller and feedback is what would take some time to do right. Could easily automate large number of acquisitions. With this memory (camera and offload to computer) becomes the speed limitation. 

    There's one minor issue with moving the camera in z (for DOF compositing) that I'll have to experiment with: if you move the camera, the perspective will change. No easy way to control the lens focus with comparable accuracy. 

DIS; steps; bellows

So now that you've got the demo working; is the next step in the dis plan to work on a functional appliction for real-time exploration of DIS? Or more data sets...You goinig to try and macro-dis with the bellows or is that still down the line a ways?  Can you provide any general guidlines if I want to start working on a 'survey' macro type DIS data set -ie image spacing total #; size of images; misc other elements that might make a worse dis better...?

DIS guidelines

Sorry I've been off the radar. A bit of a mental vacation going on.

    The next DIS software step is to make some real improvements to Space, such that DIS can be accomodated. These include some structural changes: 1) accomodate different voxel sizes transparently (display images at their appropriate scale, not at one pixel/byte but one pixel/mm) 2) add panning capability and 3) when displaying sets of 2-D images, change the resampling routine to speed up refresh. This last problem came up when making the DIS demo, and will make future demos much more interactive and friendly. I still haven't finished 32-bit grayscale (almost there), so don't hold your breath on these new things.

    I will make a DIS data set or two, macros, but I'm going to stick with 1-D rotations about a central point, because I can display these fast and they are mechanically more simple to make. And there are interesting ones to make.

    Here are the general guidelines: MOST IMPORTANT: Make good quality aquisitions (good photos, lighting, focus, even across images, etc.). Divide the memory you have by the size of the image you will store, and this gives the number of images (I think you will always be memory limited, either hard disk or RAM). The spacing isn't too critical, the closer the better (without running out of memory!) You can always only present every other one if you don't have enough RAM.

    If you want a good spacing for stereo, this also isn't too critical. You might take a test pair and view it. But if you give me the parameters (focal length, near and far points in the image) I can give you a good idea of what a good baseline (camera spacing) would be. I wrote a pamphlet about this, before I had a computer so I only have it in type. I'll give you a copy some time, or find a web reference. Basically you want the difference in angular disparity between the near and far point (when viewing the pair) to be between 1 and 5 degrees, and mostly on the smaller end of that range. Again, if you oversample (take images at short camera spacings), this isn't an issue because you have a choice of short or longer baselines.

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